CONTINUATION OF
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF PLAINTIFF WITNESS,
REV. BAZYL
ZAWIERUCHA,
BY MR.
SMORODSKY:
Mr. SMORODSKY:
P24 Q. When did you become a member of the clergy of the
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the United States of America?
A. I was received
into the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the United States of America by Blessed
Memory Patriarch Mstyslav,
and also by --
well, by Patriarch Mstyslav -- I suppose it's a little more complicated than
that -- in 19 -- I hope I'm correct --
I think it was
1990.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. He was Patriarch at the time?
A. No. I actually remember the discussion. He said to me I would like
you to do this and this and this. And I said, Vicar, I
would rather do something else. He said, you know what; if you don't do what I want you to do, I
will resign. I won't go to
the Ukraine and be Patriarch. The joke there is.
Q. It's a joke, right?
Q. Just about to be elected Patriarch of
the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine?
A. That was his
election.
MR. SMORODSKY: For the benefit of
the Court Reporter, we will have many
words that need spelling. Please interrupt us,
and I will always defer to Father
Bazyl as to spelling.
Q. Now, when you became a priest in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the United States of America, did you have to go
through any special training?
A. I was about
to say, I didn't become a priest in the Church. I was received as a priest into
the Church.
Q. What is the distinction, please?
A. Well, I was not ordained to the priesthood by Patriarch Mstyslav, nor was I ordained. I was already received as a priest into
the Orthodox Church.
Q. So you really didn't have to go through
any special schooling; you were just accepted?
A. I was received as an
Orthodox through chrismation, which is a sacrament of the Orthodox Church, and
received by the
Patriarch as a
priest.
Q. And in the course of a religious ceremony,
correct?
A. I was by concelebrating at the altar, yes.
Q. And that was the process of -- what
did you call that?
A. No. Chrismation. I was actually anointed.
Q. Anointed?
A. Yes. With chrism, to become Orthodox.
Q. To become Orthodox. Now, in your experience in the Orthodox
world, the Ukrainian Orthodox world, do priests come
from the Catholic Church? Are there
quite a few situations like yours where Catholic priests come over?
A. I do know of a number, yes.
Q. Father Zelinsky that testified earlier
in this trial in November, he came over from --
A. I believe he was a deacon ordained in the Catholic Church, but he was ordained to the priesthood in the Orthodox Church.
Q. And do priests come into the Ukrainian
Orthodox Church of the United States from other Orthodox jurisdictions?
A. By the grace of God.
Q. By the grace of God?
A. And the Holy Spirit.
Q. But they come over and are accepted,
correct? They do not --
A. Some are, some aren't.
Q. Some aren't. Is there an Orthodox
Church in Poland?
A. Yes, indeed, there is an Orthodox Church in Poland.
Q. Do you co-celebrate with that church?
A. I have never done it.
Q. Does the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of
the United States of America co-celebrate on occasion with them?
A. I have never witnessed anything.
Q. But do you recognize them?
Q. As an Orthodox Church?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you testified as to the structure
of the UOC-USA. Is your testimony that the Sobor is the entity that decides who
should be Bishop?
A. The
Sobor -- the Sobor elects the Bishop from the Council of Bishops, from the -- I
thought you said Metropolitan.
Q. No. Bishop.
A. The Sobor does elect the Bishop. It does say so in the Constitution, yes.
Q. Does the Sobor also decide who should
be elevated to the rank of Archbishop?
A. The, as I have witnessed, the Sobor has approved the proposal for someone to be elevated to Archbishop, yes.
Q. Now, I see that you used the word "approved" as opposed to "elected." Why do you use the word "approved" as opposed
to "elected?"
A. Now, within the Church, there is indeed a distinction
between, sacramentally between a priest and a Bishop. There is an
ordination and a
consecration of a Bishop to his rank. The position of Archbishop, in no way
does that augment the individual
sacramentally
any further. It is an elevation which is purely an organizational, it's a
structural part of the Church. It's an elevation
within the
episcopacy. That's why I'm trying to be clear.
Q. I want you to be clear on
this. Does the Sobor play any role in the determination of who the Archbishop
is or how – who
should be elevated to that
position?
A. Well, you see, the
curious thing is that according to the Constitution, or rather the structure of
the Church, as you notice here
there are three
Eparchies. An Eparchy can be headed either by a Bishop or an Archbishop.
Obviously, today, all three are
headed by
archbishops. So, therefore, if that's the case, then the position of Archbishop
is an elevation within the Church of
honor.
Q. And who makes this elevation of honor?
You want to refer to P-20?
A. Yes.
Q. Take a look at P-20. Take a look at it
and let me know. Take your time.
Q. Yes.
Q. I'll bear with you for a few moments.
A. As I read through the articles, article two under Church Sobor, I don't see mention of elevation to Archbishop.
Q. Let me ask you this question: Who
elevated Archbishop Antony to his position as Archbishop?
A. I'll have to beg ignorance, your Honor, because I do not know.
Q. Who elected Archbishop Vsevolod to his
position as Archbishop?
A. I am probably -- I'm
trying to be precise, and I think, as I remember at the Sobor, he was acclaimed
Archbishop, not two
Sobors ago, but I
can't, you know.
Q. '98, would that be approximate?
A. It seems to ring a bell, yeah, yes. There was an acclamation of him as such.
Q. Now, you used the word
"acclamation".
Q. You were the one taking the minutes,
huh?
A. Then. Some of the minutes.
Q. Now, you were taking the minutes. Was
Bishop Vsevolod elected, acclaimed?
A. He was certainly acclaimed. There was applause. Yes.
Q. Was elected?
A. There was no
vote taken on that.
Q. Let me ask you this, Father: You made
a face; you are not sure?
A. Yeah, I'm quite sure, but you made --
I'm making a face because I'm looking at your features. I'm wondering, hmm. My
children waived
good-bye to me as well as saying good luck. May I have some of this water?
Q. Please.
MR. SMORODSKY: A moment, Judge?
Q. Now, can, within the structure of the
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the United States of America, can the Sobor reject a
candidate for Bishop?
A. If the Sobor
needs to elect the Bishop, then I can't see how he would be elected without the
Sobor's approval.
Q. Correct. That would be --
A. According to
--
Q. According to the Constitution as to
what you testified to, the Sobor is the last word as to who becomes a Bishop,
correct?
A. They elect the individual.
Q. And what the Sobor says is the final
word on the election of a Bishop, correct? Father, you are hesitating.
A. Well, three
bishops can consecrate a Bishop any time they wish, obviously.
Q. Would
that be in accordance with –
Q. Yes.
A. No. The
Constitution says for the purposes of this particular Church, he needs to be
elected by the Sobor.
Q. Isn't that the distinguishing feature between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and a Greek Orthodox Church?
THE WITNESS:
Your Honor, I don't know what the Greek Constitution says.
THE COURT: Well, it's perfectly appropriate to answer "you do
not know" if that is, in fact, the case.
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know?
A. I really -- I would be guessing.
A. Well, no. The
Constitution says that it is the supreme -- can I? It is the supreme organ of
government of the Ukrainian
Orthodox Church of
the U.S.A.
Q. Is there a body higher in any way than
the Sobor of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
A. Well, it does say that Christ is higher. He is the Head of the
Church, and the Church follows all Ecumenical Council's canons,
structures, and dogmas.
Q. Other than God, is there anybody else
that is higher?
A. The Church tradition
is certainly -- higher, yeah, I suppose. I do understand the question, but I'd
like a nuance a little bit, but it
is the supreme
governing authority, the organ of government of the Church, yes.
Q. Father, would you take a look -- I
don't know whether it's paragraph one, two, or three of 1998 Constitution.
Q. It's going to take me a little while.
Q. Let me take a look at the document.
MR. SMORODSKY: Judge, bear with me. Bear with me.
Q. Thank you, I found it. Paragraph two.
Please read paragraph two.
Q. Yes. Paragraph -- Article One,
Paragraph Two.
A. Oh, Article
One. Okay.
"The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of
the United States of America keeps the Dogmas, Canons, Structure and Worship of
the
Holy Ecumenical Orthodox Church; it is
autocephalous, independent, in all matters of its life and government, and its rights
are
equal with those of the other Autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Q. The word "autocephalous,"
what does it mean?
A. It says here it's -- actually explains it. Autocephalous, meaning independent.
Q. That means it is independent of any
other body?
A. In matters of its life and government. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, are you familiar with the Points
of Agreement?
A. I read them a few years ago.
Q. Now, they were presented at the 1998
Sobor, were they not?
A. Uh-huh. Yes, they were.
Q. And at that time there was substantial
discussion about --
A. Yes.
Q. -- about the Points of Agreement,
correct?
A. Yes, there were.
(D-57 marked for identification, Points of
Agreement.)
Q. I show you this document. I would like
you to refresh your recollection as to the contents of this document, please.
Q. That is correct.
Q. Pardon?
Q. Yeah. Just to refresh your
recollection.
(Pause in proceedings.)
A. Yes.
Q. I call your attention to paragraph 6.
In paragraph 6, does that paragraph indicate how bishops are to be elected?
A. It does speak of election. Canonical election, yes.
Q. And what does it say?
Q. No, no. What is your interpretation of
what it says?
A. That the names of the candidates for canonical election as bishops within the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the names of these
candidates need to be, once approved by the Sobor, will be submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for canonical election.
Q. You missed a little part there.
A. You didn't want me to read the whole thing.
Q. Okay. Within that paragraph, Father --
A. Yes?
A. Okay. Uh-huh. That the Primate, who is the Prime Hierarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, consulting the Exarch of the
Ecumenical
Patriarchate in America will submit the slate of candidates for the office of
Bishop or Metropolitan to the Sobor.
Q. That's
different than what the Constitution says, does it not? Is it not?
P40 A. This is not what the Constitution says.
(TO BE CONTINUED)